Curse

JoDiamonds · Jul 07, 2005, 04:57 AM // 04:57

I know I saw somewhere (manual? official website?) that you aren't considered to be fighting a monster unless certain conditions are met. If you don't meet the conditions, you aren't fighting that monster, and you can't get drops from that monster.

I believe that the conditions are something like:

1- The monster is in your Danger Zone (as named in the manual)
2- The monster is in the Danger Zone of an ally that you heal / buff / etc.

If that's more or less true, then if a monster is fighting a warrior who is a bit out of your range (not uncommon), then likely that monster is never "fighting" you, and therefore you aren't eligible for its item drops.

This follows closely with what Uldrath has said, but I'm pretty sure I've seen it written down in some kind of official docs somewhere (trying to find it, failing).

Sadly, this would mean that Warriors are just more likely to get drops than the guys in the back, though strangely enough healers are likely to get the drops since they heal everyone all over the place.

Sereng Amaranth · Jul 07, 2005, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alderman Sweet

If drop rate is dependent on proximity, Alesia should be getting most of the drops.

Quoted for the inherently kamikazee truth.

The Ages · Jul 07, 2005, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

If drop rate is dependent on proximity, Alesia should be getting most of the drops

That would explain alot, So next time you call Alesia Stupid think about this. After all she is not getting paid by you she has to get her cash somewhere

Algren Cole · Jul 07, 2005, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by velvetbunny

Drops are random, plain and simple. Nothing you do in a party will influence what drops get assigned to you. Having it assign items based on anything other then a random number would be silly. Imagine if what your implying were true, now imagine how many monks/ele's would then begin to try and tank in parties and get up close and or take damage just to try and get a drop assigned to them. Do you really think the designers would intend for that to happen? I certainly do not.

take up programming...you will find that often times the result of your code is not entirely what you intended it to be.....

Sekkira · Jul 07, 2005, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by velvetbunny

Drops are random, plain and simple. Nothing you do in a party will influence what drops get assigned to you. Having it assign items based on anything other then a random number would be silly. Imagine if what your implying were true, now imagine how many monks/ele's would then begin to try and tank in parties and get up close and or take damage just to try and get a drop assigned to them. Do you really think the designers would intend for that to happen? I certainly do not.

Where do you have proof to back this statement up? And no, you can't turn it around because these dudes are creating a hypothesis about whether it's based on distance and are out to prove whether that is true or not.

I also agree that it is based on distance at some points as I've once gotten stuck in the stairs when doing the divinity coast and eventually there were no drops for me ever.

Paladin_Adoni · Jul 07, 2005, 02:07 PM // 14:07

this is how I see the loot sytem working :

more damage dealt = higher chance of loot
more damage taken = higher chance of loot
more hits landed = higher chance of loot
closer range = higher chance of loot
low number of drops so far = higher chance of loot

basically each person at the point when a monster dies has this information tallied, then randoms between the people who have had a low amount of loot so far, but have a high "number" fromt he other factors.

the obvious mold breaker is a healer. who deal no damage. in there case, it would most likely take these into account :

more damage stopped = higher chance of loot
more health healed = higher chance of loot

that sort of thing.

nothing to base this on. but its seems to fit (or something similar)

Sentinel · Jul 07, 2005, 02:13 PM // 14:13

When you are doing experiments you need to be unbiased. Do the experiment
and take a look at the results after. The original poster had already a "feeling" and therefore he was biased. No offence but I can't trust his results one bit.

Also when random numbers are involved then statistics come out to play and you need to run the same experiment over and over to start getting an idea of what is going one. I'm afraid 20 times is just plain inadequate. Even 100 times is not enough to write it in stone. I mean look at the real world. Scientists take thousants of samples in order to formulate an opinion about something.

Back to the game. With my W I was always complaining that I don't get any drops in FoW or UW. Some days were better than others but the bad days I remember the most. After I accepted it's random somehow the drops got better.
It was all in my mind?? YOU BET!!lol

With my monk i stay the hell out of range of the nasties while I stay close enough to heal and my drops don't suffer comparing to anyone.

Just to disprove the argument once and for all I invite you guys to come to one of my farming spots. You stay at the spawn while I go out, deep in the map, and kill 30-40 nasties. According to some of you I should get most of the drops.... say, more than half... and you guys at the spawn you'll be lucky to get anything. I highly doubt it but with you guys there checking on me I can't be biased.

Sent.-

JoDiamonds · Jul 07, 2005, 02:19 PM // 14:19

If you are nowhere near the enemies being killed, you have a 0% chance of getting a drop from it. Sentinel, I'd be happy to join you for this test. I know I'll get zero drops once you are far enough away.

I'm not certain of anything else said in this thread, but many, many people have pointed out that if you are really far away, you just don't get drops. Which makes sense.

Algren Cole · Jul 07, 2005, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin_Adoni

this is how I see the loot sytem working :

more damage dealt = higher chance of loot
more damage taken = higher chance of loot
more hits landed = higher chance of loot
closer range = higher chance of loot
low number of drops so far = higher chance of loot

basically each person at the point when a monster dies has this information tallied, then randoms between the people who have had a low amount of loot so far, but have a high "number" fromt he other factors.

the obvious mold breaker is a healer. who deal no damage. in there case, it would most likely take these into account :

more damage stopped = higher chance of loot
more health healed = higher chance of loot

that sort of thing.

nothing to base this on. but its seems to fit (or something similar)

I can assure you that's not how it works...that would kill the server in 32.7981 seconds flat.

Sentinel · Jul 07, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

If you are nowhere near the enemies being killed, you have a 0% chance of getting a drop from it. Sentinel, I'd be happy to join you for this test. I know I'll get zero drops once you are far enough away.

I'm not certain of anything else said in this thread, but many, many people have pointed out that if you are really far away, you just don't get drops. Which makes sense.

Well.... Let's try it then. I will be interesting for sure. Let's round up a few others and let's do it. I'm in eastern time and can run this any time after 6pm est tonight. Let's do it!

Sent.-

Paladin_Adoni · Jul 07, 2005, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I can assure you that's not how it works...that would kill the server in 32.7981 seconds flat.

so you mean the mega stupid lag I get already while playing solo is not created by some stupidly over complex system for denying me of loot?

:P

I did say or something similar. the idea was not to take it WORD for WORD. but a type of system that takes this approach.

oh and it would be 32.7984 seconds thank you very much

Algren Cole · Jul 07, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin_Adoni

oh and it would be 32.7984 seconds thank you very much

lol...forgive me, my math has always been poor

the lag you experience is probably(if it isn't graphic)based on the fact that ArenaNet almost assuredly not using enough servers to host the gamers...hosting is EXPENSIVE...and with no monthly fee providing it for free is difficult...I'm sure the botters don't help much either seeing as they are constantly taxing the system. Bots are never not doing anything...MANY MANY players spend alot of time doing nothing...

Paladin_Adoni · Jul 07, 2005, 02:36 PM // 14:36

its definately not my system, built for maximum doom 3 and half life 2 graphics play.

the lag is the number 1 reason I dont play PvP 1/4 of a second lag is a BAD thing.

back on topic. I get CRAP loot in groups all the time. almost never anything good. the good stuff I get solo. and im a warrior

Diomedes · Jul 07, 2005, 02:48 PM // 14:48

I've seen a lot of arguments flying around and it might be helpful to try and condense a few of these together.

First, I think it's a big problem that the OP used groups and not individuals. If some groups had 10 monsters and others only 5 then there will be big problems. For the rest of my post, I'm going to pretend that he used monsters and not groups, that way if the experiment is repeated properly (i.e. counting monster kills, not groups) what I say can still apply with just plug in the new numbers.

So we have 2 groups, near (N) and far (F). The frequency for drops for N is 17/20 = .85, the frequency for drops for F is 8/20 = .4

u = sum(x*(f/n))

So here's the table

Near Group
Drop outcome(x)| Measured Probability p(x) | Calculation of mean xp(x)
no drop = 0 | .15 | 0
got a drop = 1 | .85 | .85
u = .85
Far Group
no drop = 0 | .6 | 0
got a drop = 1 | .4 | .4
u = .4

Calculation of sample variance = sum((x-u)^2)*p(x)

Near group
(x-u)^2 | (x-u)^2*p(x)
.7225 | .1084
.0225 | .0191
s^2 = .1275

Far Group
(x-u)^2 | (x-u)^2*p(x)
.16 | .096
.36 | .144
s^2 = .24

(more to come)....

Diomedes · Jul 07, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

now we can difference the means and create a confidence interval.

(X1 - X2) +/- t.025*(s1^2/n1 + s2^2/n2)^(.5)

(.85-.4) +/- 2.02*(.1275/20 + .24/20)^.5 = .45 +/- 0.273819923

Now some people claim that there is no difference between the means, but that does not fall within a 95% confidence interval.

Hence to everyone stating that you can't tell anything from a sample of 40 observations, actually you can.

However in this case, it needs to be repeated with monsters, not groups.

Anyhow, good luck guys, this is sort of a crude statistical method, but it is valid.

-Diomedes

Diomedes · Jul 07, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

In case the math made your eyes glaze over, let me summarize:

(A) What the OP did was NOT too small of a sample size
(B) The OP or someone should repeat the exercise with monsters, not groups
(C) If that was monsters, not groups, you can reject the hypothesis that the two samples are the same, in other words, IF ALL OTHER THINGS ARE INDEED HELD CONSTANT, then You /DO/ get more drops from being closer.

-Diomedes

StormWater · Jul 07, 2005, 03:30 PM // 15:30

In the words of the noble bard, Samuel Clemmons-

"There are lies, damned lies and statistics."

I'd love to hear from Anet on the general principles for loot dropping and allocation of that loot. The rest of us can hypothesize all we want.

PieXags · Jul 07, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

I just know that in a 5 man UW smite run today (just with my guild mates, not as a trapper, or anything like that, just people), I didn't get a single drop.

Not one.

I was the only ranger, so I was problably furthest away the whole time.

There are times when we'll go through all but the last fight in a mission and I'll have not gotten a drop. Sometimes I even prepare the text "I'm bound to get a drop one of these days" simply because I'm so unlucky when it comes to drops.

Damn damn damn.

Diomedes · Jul 07, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormWater

In the words of the noble bard, Samuel Clemmons-

"There are lies, damned lies and statistics."

I'd love to hear from Anet on the general principles for loot dropping and allocation of that loot. The rest of us can hypothesize all we want.

And in the words of Nietzsche, "If at the end of the day I have caught no fish it is not because I am a poor fisherman, but rather, that there are no fish to be caught."

I would like to hear from ANet too, but I doubt that they'll ever actually make a statement. In the mean time, those who are careful and use numbers wisely can learn a good deal.

-Diomedes

Sekkira · Jul 07, 2005, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I'm neither here nor there. I would be against someone saying one thing is set in solid proof without stone... err stone without proof (is not thinking).

Anyway, I'd rather hear it from ArenaNet on how all this works.